Chris Sund, President of Uniti Med Staffing, joins the latest episode of the Staffing Show to talk about his decade of experience in healthcare staffing. He shares some of the forward-thinking practices they have implemented, such as hour-long gratitude practices, and how these incentives have helped to attract and retain employees. Later, Sund discusses some of the ways that Uniti Med has navigated the talent shortage and digital transformation while staying true to their mission and core values.
David Folwell: Hello everyone, thank you for joining us for another episode of The Staffing Show. Today I’m super excited to be joined by Chris Sund, who’s the president of Uniti Med Staffing. Chris, thanks so much for being on this show. Super excited to have a conversation with you today. To kick things off, could you go ahead and give us a little bit about your background and how you got into healthcare staffing?
Chris Sund: Thanks, Dave. First off, I’m really excited to be on the show. I’ve been in healthcare staffing for a little around 10 years, the last decade, and I’ve had a wide variety of roles, everything from recruiting to account managing and managing sales teams. And that eventually led me to Uniti Med. We are a healthcare staffing company that really focuses on travel nursing, travel allied, long-term care, and as well as our locum tenens division.
Folwell: That’s great. Tell us a little bit about what your journey was like to get into a spot where you’re now the president of Uniti Med.
Sund: Great question. Prior to this, at my last company, I worked in, over, a sales division. I helped create a business development team and then at that company helped collaborate and create our MSP, and it gave me a wide background on a variety of different departments leading people. When we created the MSP, it was such a different process than how we ran. So we were trying to figure out, “How do you take other company’s candidates and put them through a process where you’re not working with your own team?” You’re working with a bunch of other company’s sales employees and their compliance and billing.
It gave me a great opportunity to learn a lot more about the business. I was given a really good opportunity by our founder, Rich Andersen, who created Uniti Med. He had also been a part of creating Fusion Medical Staffing, Atlas [MedStaff], and Ventura [MedStaff] prior to launching Uniti Med. After some talks back and forth to him, I decided to take a leap and help come over and run this company.
Folwell: That’s really great. Tell me a little bit about the mission of Uniti Med.
Sund: Our real mission is to be a heart-led staffing company that impacts the lives of our travelers, our clients, our business partners, and ourselves. So that heart, you can see it in our logo, we really wanted to create a company that wasn’t about the pricing strategy. It wasn’t 100% about just technology taking over. It is really about the experience of the people we work with, building a community and not treating everyone like a transaction, understanding the value and appreciation of everyone we work with and building a company off those relationships.
Folwell: I mean, you and I have done webinars together and talked quite a bit, and so I’ve seen firsthand what your culture looks like and heard it from you. You do a lot of things that are quite a bit different when it comes to focusing on the employee culture and your company culture. Could you share a few of those specific items? Anything that you think stands out from your perspective?
Sund: Yeah. Absolutely. I think the very first thing that stands out is when I came over, we started building out a leadership team and identifying the key leaders we needed to hire over the next year or two. We made a decision to bring in a director of culture before any of our other leadership hires. And a lot of people had said, “Why not the compliance and HR?” But we knew from the very beginning that if we could create a place where employees can be the best version of themselves, that we really felt we were going to accomplish our mission and we can reciprocate that to everyone we’ve worked with.
So we invested in the director of culture, Micaela Zimmer, is an absolutely amazing addition to this leadership team and it’s a huge part of why our culture is as good as it is. Then we started listening to feedback. “What can we do to make employees be the best version of themselves? What are we doing from a benefit standpoint, from office offerings, from employee developments? What are we doing to keep them healthy in their mind and their spirit and their soul?”
So yeah, I guess, if I get into specifics, our kitchen, we cater in lunch a lot. We stock a lot of snacks. There’s really probably no reason to ever go hungry when you’re in this office. We put a gym in part of our building and built a fitness center, so we had a place that they could go work out. We have a meditation room we installed, so when they just need to get away, they can. We installed a mother’s room here. Those were a couple off the top of my head.
Folwell: No, that’s amazing. So it sounds like you’re really putting your employees first and really thinking about what sets them up to thrive in the working environment. One of the things that I would love to have you talk about the first time I heard this from you, I was just blown away by it, but the one hour of gratitude that you do is something that really…I hear people talk about gratitude journals. I hear people talk about doing it in the morning and individually, and not a lot of employers bring it into the workplace, or at least not like what you shared with this. Could you explain what the one hour of gratitude is?
Sund: Yeah, I’ll start with how we came to one hour of gratitude and it started with our own internal employee MVP meeting. So every Friday we do a company-wide MVP meeting and our coworkers nominate someone that is showing our values and really going above and beyond. That time has been proven to be so impactful. The last Friday, we had four interns that have been here for the summer and they created a little video of their experience and then they shared in front of the whole company during our meeting the impact it’s made on them. I tell you what, I mean, I like thinking about what they said. I was so proud that it was hard to hold back the emotions and I could look around the room and you could feel how big of a deal it was. That’s what the MVP meeting’s about.
Sometimes people don’t get seen because it’s not a sales thing they did. They’re just helping somebody. Those are the people, those heroes that deserve to get recognized in front of the company. We saw how big of an impact it was making across each other. The idea is, “What are we going to do, though, for our travelers and our clients and our business partners?” So every Friday we just dedicate an hour to end the week of telling people how much we care about them and sharing our gratitude for them.
Folwell: I think that’s such an incredible practice and there’s all kinds of data behind gratitude and how it helps with happiness and reduces depression, helps with engagement. It’s just like all the data that goes behind it, and people, I think, do it so consistently as an individual effort, but bringing that into the workplace I think is really, really fantastic. So I think that’s a unique thing that you guys do that I think is pretty special.
So we’re going to shift gears a little bit from your company culture, zoom out. What changes have you seen in the healthcare staffing industry over the last decade and what are some of the trends that you’re currently seeing today?
Sund: Oh, great question. I think it’s pretty safe to say if I went back 10 years, you look, the need for the staffing shortage was just going to keep increasing year after year. Remember sharing data pre-pandemic on the next 10 years, how the staffing shortage was just going to continue getting worse than where we’re at today. And what are we going to do to help with that, those workforce solutions? Then we hit the pandemic and from 2020 to 2022, I felt like we jumped maybe five to seven years forward and you saw people that were close to retiring, retiring early. You saw people just completely quit the field altogether and go into another line of work.
It jumped to where I felt like the shortage would have been in, like I said, 2025, 2026 predictions. Now we reset and we look at it and we’re still in this spot where we’re at today. There’s thousands of jobs open all over our country, especially rural locations, which have always primarily been impacted with staffing shortages. There is not a statistic saying there’s a healthcare profession, that we won’t have a worse shortage 10 years from now. So there’s a continuing growing need of healthcare professionals and once again, especially in these rural locations, to get people to these towns that maybe no one’s ever heard of before. That’s kind of where we shine and step in.
Folwell: Yeah, it is interesting to hear, and you and I have talked about this a little bit. But from so many staffing agency owners, they’re like, “Wow, it’s gotten really tough this year.” But if you zoom out far enough, it still looks pretty good. It kind of looks like a little lull in an overall long kind of upward trend. So it’s definitely not the market that we’ve been in the past.
You talked a little bit about the rural areas and that being a specialty of where you guys focus. What are some things that you do differently to make sure that you’re succeeding in rural areas and getting placements for those hospitals?
Sund: That’s a great question. I think first off, it’s making sure we’re building relationships with those rural hospitals and taking the time to understand their unique needs, not just from a, “We need this shift,” but understanding the culture of that hospital and the community, and then taking that time to know that. And then explain that to the travelers why it would be a good place for them to go. I don’t think anyone says they want to go work at a place that has a bad culture or that isn’t going to treat them well. And not every place is equal. So it takes us learning that.
I’ve seen small towns that have these hospitals; there’s a couple thousand people in the town. There isn’t a major grocery store close to them, and yet they’re some of the best hospitals people have ever worked at. They know their name when they walk through the door, they treat them like family. They’re so grateful to have them there helping them out that they treat them accordingly. Then we take time to learn what is there to do in that area? Because I’ve been fascinated to learn, there’s so many amazing places to explore and find adventure in this country that may not be in that town, but you started zooming out a little bit and within an hour to two hours there’s so many things that you can go do and see.
So it’s kind of learning that, “You know what? Yeah, we’d love to go to Nashville. We understand why, but they may not have a lot of need right now and it costs a lot of money to stay there for three months. But I might have a town an hour or so away from Nashville and that small town, the cost of living is extremely affordable. It’s a well-reputable hospital. You can take the extra money you’re making, helping that little hospital out and go have a lot of fun in Nashville and all your time off.”
Folwell: Yeah, that’s great. So it sounds like you’re with the, I don’t know, maybe higher competition on jobs on getting placements today. You’re focusing on rural areas, building relationships with the hospitals, and then focusing on the benefits of the rural areas and selling that into and communicating that to the travelers. Is that a fair assessment of that?
Sund: It definitely is. I like to talk about the pandemic. It was just a different market where I referred to it as walking into a store on Black Friday. You could pretty much find any hospital and there’s a need in any location. You could say, “Are we willing to go here?” Now it’s not that way. Now it’s, “Here’s the locations that really are looking for help in their communities and how do we get people there?” It’s just taking the time to find the people that go, “Yeah, you know what? I want to travel because I want to make an impact in these hospitals and I’m doing this because I do want to gain new experiences. I want to explore. I want the adventure.” When we find the right person that’s looking for that, then we’re able to start matching them up with all those experiences they can have over a career.
Folwell: Yeah, that’s great. Are there other things that you’ve been doing in this kind of fewer jobs, higher competition, other activities that you’ve been doing, whether it be working with the VMS or MSP to increase submittal rates? Anything on that front?
Sund: Yeah, I mean, absolutely all the above. Once again, it came back to those relationships. It’s taking the time to get face time with all of our partners, understanding, asking them for their feedback, “What can we do better? How do we improve with you guys?” Making sure that when we say we send somebody, they’re starting on time, that they’re doing the full contract, that they’re being asked to stay.
Then you have to be submitting to way more than you used to because there’s such a higher amount of competition right now per the amount of jobs out there. You can’t just pick one or two jobs and think you’re going to get an interview. It’s really north of 10 different jobs to probably get an interview on average.
Now there’s some positions, yeah, if you’re high in demand and there’s not a lot of you out there, it can be low. But I’d say across the board, if I just took a bulk average, it’s definitely north of 10 job submissions to get an offer.
Folwell: How does that compare to a year ago or two years ago?
Sund: Oh, man. Significantly higher. In some specialties it could be almost double the amount of places you’d have to be open to traveling to. I mean, there are times that there’s just four times the amount of jobs compared to the amount of people that were going out there.
Folwell: Yeah, I’ve heard anywhere from….
Sund: They can auto-offer somebody and instead of now where there could be 20, 30 candidates going in for one position, they’re going to pick the top resumes the least amount of time off and then narrow that down to maybe a handful and then pick one out of the 30.
Folwell: I’ve heard anywhere from 2-5x the number of submittals that you need to make, to get a placement. So effort to placement has gone up and this actually spans outside of…. heard it in healthcare and then also heard it in IT quite a bit as well. So with that and some of the changes that we’ve had in the last couple of years, especially this year, I think it’s been a major shift, but what are some of the steps that you’ve taken with your team to make sure that you guys are focused in the right area on the things that are going to continue to drive growth for you?
Sund: Great question. It comes down to our training and our employee coordination and it’s taken the strategy of knowing, “Here’s really where the jobs are at.” And we are not doing our job if we’re not consulting the people we’re working with and making sure they’re aware of the changes, what it’s like, what does a travel career really look like? So it’s taking the time to consult, to explain to them what’s out there. Because the worst thing we could do for somebody is just think for the short gain that we have somebody that wants a job and we have that job.
Well, in a perfect world, let’s say, that that ideal location is there and they work for three months, and that place no longer has a need, and no one in the vicinity does. Now what are you going to do? Are you willing to go back to your old job? Are you willing to go somewhere else? So it’s taking the time to understand what they’re looking for and painting that picture that, “We’re not just looking to get you here today, but after that we want to make sure that there’s plenty of things that sound appealing to you that you want to continue doing this over and over and over again.”
Folwell: So it sounds like really digging in, and I hear this as a theme throughout everything. It’s focusing on the individual, the relationship, making sure that you’re serving somebody’s needs and you understand them well, just at the cornerstone for making sure that you’re putting the effort in the right place.
Sund: Absolutely. Yeah. These are people’s careers. It’s their livelihoods. I tell our team a lot, we talk about it. We would never hire any internal employee other than our internships to be the exception of the rule. If someone applies, said, “I just want to come and work for three months and then leave.” You would look at another candidate. And why would we take somebody’s career if we know there’s a good chance they can only work there for three months and we might not have an option for them after that? It’s just not a smart partnership for either of us unless they agree that that’s what they’re looking for; they’re just looking….
Sund: That’s great. We’ll do that all day long. But for somebody that’s looking for something longer than that, we need to be honest with them and really start talking about, “What’s it look like after this job?”
Folwell: Yeah, that’s insightful. With that, we’ve jumped over this at the beginning, but your growth rate for your company has been absolutely insane. Your revenue growth rate, I think it was over 600% last year. So I think as we’re going through some of these components, it’s worth noting that you’ve figured some things out in terms of how to drive growth for your business.
One of the things that you just commented on there, it sounds like you’re very focused on redeployment rates as well. Maybe even starting off the conversation with a focus on the redeployment of like, “Hey, we’re not just here for one assignment. We’re going to line you up for two or three.” Is that part of the recruiting strategy that you put in place too?
Sund: It absolutely is. If you are focused on just filling jobs and taking the jobs, seeing a candidate that’ll go there and focus on that instead of the next career path for them, you are going to spin your wheels in the mud. If you’re not retaining your staff and keeping them working for you multiple assignments, then you’re going to spend all your effort continuing to always find new, new, new. So a big piece is, “What are we doing to get people that want to work for us a long time, and then how do we create an experience that makes them not want to go work for any other company, that makes them want to stay loyal to Uniti Med?”
Folwell: That’s great. You’ve talked a lot about the relationship, understanding their needs. Are there other areas in terms of creating that experience that are special or unique that you’d be willing to share? I don’t want to have you share all your secret sauce, but.
Sund: Yeah, no, I’m happy to share and I’ll give some granular details and I’ll kind of give a big picture.
So every year we have a thematic goal, and when I explain that to people our mission always stays the same. The values that drive us stay the same, but as you grow as a person, as a company, you should have seasonal things that would get you to your mission. So while last year we focused a lot on building a strong foundation this year it was, “How do we create an experience for our business partners, our travelers and our clients that makes them choose Uniti Med over everyone else?” So when we say this as a thematic goal, every quarter our leadership team meets in their department and they have to come up with the top two to three ways that they’re going to make that impact.
So it’s not just, “How is sales making the experience better?” It’s, “How does our compliance team make the experience better? How does HR onboarding payroll finance?” Because every bit of them, from the time they make their first call, they have an issue anytime they need anything that’s part of that whole experience.
So we started — every department dives in. And because of that we’ve added really amazing benefits. Some were a cost to the company. I feel like some weren’t. I have employees that feel they understand the importance of this and they will make phone calls, say, “I just got all of our travelers a better deal on working out and a national discount,” or, “I reached out because I know this would be something that helps out,” and everyone feels bought in to saying, “How do we make everything we can do better?”
So that’s the bigger approach. Some of the feedback we got in domestic partnership was one that I feel ashamed to say we didn’t have prior, that was a no brainer. It really falls with our values that we should offer that. We turned that on immediately and then we heard about other things that we could be offering and went, “Let’s get that turned on. What are we doing to make sure when they’re onboarding it is as smooth as possible, whether that’s implementing better technology or just changing our process altogether?”
Folwell: That’s really great. Jumping to the next question I’ve got here is what lessons have you learned the last couple of years that you really wish you knew today? So things that you’ve, maybe market changes, but you’re like, “Man, if I had known that I could have avoided these catastrophes or some of these challenges?”
Sund: That is a really good question. Go back and change some of the decisions. Honestly, I feel like any of the decisions that I would maybe consider looking differently really centers around people more than anything.
If you have the right people in the right spots that are bought into their mission and are really looking at, how do they make everyone around them add value to their lives? I feel like the pieces work out. So there’s times when we really understand it. You understand the sacrifice someone makes to come here. And so we want to make sure we’re giving everything we can to set them up.
I would say there’s some times that we realized that the relationship probably wasn’t healthy for both parties and that either just what we love to do here as our company maybe isn’t something that they passionately love to do as a career and that’s completely great and okay. And we want those people to find something that they love to do every day. I think there were times that we so badly wanted to make it work and wanted to make sure we’d done everything to make it work that we kind of hung on to a relationship longer than we should have. So if I could go back, I think I would continue to remind ourselves to just have those open conversations more frequently and make sure that what we’re looking for, what we want and what they really want aligns well.
Folwell: Do you integrate or do anything unique when it comes to the selection process? Are you very slow to hire and methodical about that as well?
Sund: We really are. We’ve been really blessed the last six months to a year on the amount of people that have applied to work for us. I haven’t looked in the last few weeks, but at one point I think we had 500 applicants since last October, so not quite a year, which is amazing because we’ve added not even a couple percents.
So we narrowed that down and we’ve really tried to have the leadership team look at if we’re hiring one spot that they would talk to the best five that they could see, and then even at that point get other forms of leadership involved, do assessments.
The rule has been if you don’t walk out of the room going, “You have to have this person,” and you know that they’re going to make the company better. You know when you got that hire, and you’re like, “Our whole company’s better because of that person.” They could be two weeks into here, and I always go, “That person is going to make this company better.”
Folwell: Yeah. Yeah.
Sund: You know that. If you walk out of the room and go, “I think they can do this.” It’s the biggest no I’ve ever heard.
Dave: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Sund: Like, “We have to have this person.” So don’t settle for anything less than, “We have to have this person.”
Folwell: I love that. That reminds me of, there’s an article about this, “Decisions should either be an ‘eff yes, I want it’ or a ‘No’.” Should either be like, “A hundred percent, I’m in” or a “No.” If there’s any wishy-washy, if you’re in the middle, it’s just moving into the no category. I will say that my own personal experience with hiring, with joining teams, having people join teams is like every time there’s a red flag early on, six months down the road, a year down the road, two years down the road, that red flag ends up popping back up, and you’re like, “Okay, we ignored that. We knew we had hesitation, we ignored that hesitation and here we are.” I just second that advice so much.
So one category, we didn’t jump into a bunch here, but is on the business development side, you’ve spent a lot of your career there, you have some expertise. What’s your business development strategy look like?
Sund: Great question. One of my favorite areas. I think the best thing you do in business development is, it probably varies. But for us, we’ve really leaned heavily into smaller rural communities and we’ve taken the approach, we’re constantly calling, we’re finding out. Sometimes we don’t know that they are partnered with one of our business partners, in which case we make sure we do what we can to support that business partner. Then there’s other times where they prefer to work directly with the companies.
We found a lot of benefits in attending conferences. Not all conferences are equal. There’s some out there that I would say we went to and, lesson learned, didn’t get a lot of value, but there’s something about going to the right conference that has the right audience and getting to meet them face-to-face, hear about what they care about, what matters to them. And then see what we can do to help support them with any of the problems they’re having with their staffing. That’s done really well for us. But it’s also just been picking up the phone, calling the places, taking time to get to know them the same way. For us, it is a critical part of our business strategy, is to build relationships with all these hospitals’ decision makers.
Folwell: I mean, I know this year we hear a lot of customers saying business development is a key initiative. Are you hiring more in that area? Have you built up the team, or have you made changes?
Sund: Yep, we’ve added to the team, and I assume most companies do it this way. We have a dedicated team that does business development and that is all they do, just reach out to find business opportunities and then give it to someone to run.
With that said, anybody that runs accounts is also doing business development. So all of our client managers that are currently working with their current clients, their biggest way to help grow is by getting new clients. So they also are taking time, getting to know everybody, focusing on not just, I like to say, farming the relationship, but going out and finding new business for themselves as well.
Folwell: That’s really great. We’re going to kind of shift gears a couple of times here for the last set of questions. So the other area, and I know you’ve been very tech-forward. But could you share some of the effects that technology you’re seeing it have on healthcare staffing, and then do you have any stories specific to Uniti Med about how you’re leveraging technology as well?
Sund: Absolutely. I’m sure people have heard me say this once or twice before, but I tell every new hire when they start here that we are not looking for technology to replace our recruiters. I really believe solely on the experience and value our recruiters are able to give. However, we are trying to turn our recruiters into superheroes. So we’re trying to create some iron man here that can use technology to do their job way more efficiently.
So I’m happy to share some of the technologies that worked really well for us. Definitive Healthcare has been a really great ability. The data that they’re able to provide for us has made it extremely quicker for us to locate, “What are the smaller rural hospitals? Who’s on their team? Are these somebody that would be smart for us to partner with?” Versus the legwork it would have taken for us to find that same information.
Staffing Referrals has been amazing for us. A big part of our revenue growth was focusing on referrals as a lead source. It is currently in our top two for 2023 for our lead sources and being able to use, it’s so simple concept to take. Anybody can ask for referrals, but more often than not, we don’t. We forget to ask, or we don’t ask enough just to really get the full amount of referrals that that person might be capable of. So that technology has really allowed us to bring in a lot more leads and some of the better leads that I think we have.
What are some of the other ones? We use Sense. Sense automation. If you’re not using some form of automation in journeys….
Folwell: You should be.
Sund: … you should be.
Sund: So yeah, once again, let’s make our recruiters work more efficiently and there’s so many tasks that you can take away that are not a good use of their time. RefAssured is another good one. Calling references when they’re hospital leaders who are already extremely busy and thinking that’s a good way to get references. It’s not.
So using technology to make it so mindless and easy for the people we’re trying to get the reference from has improved the speed, time, the quality. It just does not make sense for me to have people calling and doing that when the technology does it far superior than we ever could.
Folwell: It’s faster, easier, and better data.
Folwell: It’s like an easier approach there. RefAssured is a no-brainer if you’re in healthcare.
Folwell: Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. So we’re going to jump to the final set of questions, kind of a speed round. So in the last five years, what new belief, behavior, or habit has most improved your life?
Sund: Oh, that’s a really hard question. I’m going to go with that, I really believe it’s my personal mission and that is to help make people the best version of themselves. So that is my personal guiding principle. It’s a big part of what we try to do here that, if every day, I can find ways to add value to someone else. I think that’s the biggest impact I can make.
Folwell: That’s great. What is one of the best or most worthwhile investments you’ve ever made? Could be an investment of money, time, energy, et cetera.
Sund: Cool. I’m going to circle back to what I said earlier, investment, adding a director of culture to our leadership team. Prioritizing culture, not just by adding a leader. But as a priority initiative, we have real goals that’s discussed on a regular weekly basis on “how are we doing” and being true to yourself and finding ways to improve. I would say that has been, hands down, the best investments.
Folwell: I love hearing that. You’re the second person on this podcast, another person who’s had an insanely rapid growth trajectory, who’s started there similar to you. So I’m going to second that advice as well.
What are the bad recommendations you hear in healthcare staffing?
Sund: Ooh, bad recommendations. That’s a good question. I think it’s trying to throw everything at the wall and hoping it sticks. I really think you’re better off to hone in and focus on certain things and do it at a really high level, and then if you want to expand those services, do so later. Instead of being, no offense, Cheesecake Factory, but instead of being the person that just tries to say you do everything and put the whole menu out there, be known for doing certain things really well. I don’t believe in just throwing everything at the wall and just saying, you do it all.
Folwell: Yeah, absolutely.
Last question I’ve got for you is what is the book or books you’ve given most as a gift and why?
Sund: So that’s a good one. I think it definitely depends on the person, which book it is, and why. I’m a huge lover, Jocko Willink, Extreme Ownership and the follow-up, Dichotomy of Leadership. So when somebody is looking for more leadership development, I tend to lean that way.
The other one I really love is if I’m just looking for somebody and they’re looking for how to take it to the next level, and I think it applies to everyone. There’s a series of books by this author and they’re all very similar, but Chop Wood Carry Water, and Pound The Stone, and Win in the Dark are all by Joshua Medcalf. They’re very simple fable stories that teach extremely amazing lessons that are easy to read for everyone. They’re one of those books that I’m like, “I wish I could get all my own boys to read these.” If you ever just need to tell people, “A cup of coffee for your life,” I feel like they’re short, simple reads that give you that jolt of motivation….
Folwell: That was Chop Wood by Joshua Medcalf?
Sund: Yeah. Chop Wood Carry Water.
Folwell: Carry Water. Okay. Awesome. I appreciate that. Well, thank you so much for being on, Chris. I really enjoyed this conversation. I appreciate you joining today and sharing all of your insights with our audience.
Sund: Absolutely. Likewise, Dave. I appreciate being on here. I tell you what, I need to hear some more of the books that you’ve heard, and if you could send me that article you mentioned earlier about “eff this and no to that,” let me know. I definitely want to read that.
Folwell: Absolutely. All right. Thanks so much.
Sund: Thanks, Dave, appreciate it.
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