On this episode of The Staffing Show, Jeff Beckmann, CFO of LRS Healthcare, joins David to talk about his experience adjusting to the staffing industry coming from a background in accounting. He also explains his belief in how taking care of his employees positively affects clients’ well-being. Later in the interview, Beckmann discusses the challenges and opportunities of technology adoption and shares his thoughts about the future of the staffing industry, including what he refers to as a “level setting.”
David Folwell: Hello everyone. Thank you for joining us for another episode of The Staffing Show. Today I am joined by Jeff Beckmann, who is the CFO of LRS Healthcare. Jeff, thanks for being on the show today. Super excited to have you here. Excited about the conversation we’re about to have. To kick things off, could you just give a quick introduction to who you are and how you got into staffing?
Jeff Beckmann: Yeah. No, I’m super excited to be here today. Appreciate you having me. I’ve been with LRS now about four years, and I go back to, before that I’m the accountant that converted to staffing, got away from it and came back to it. So I was working at KPMG for a while, went into recruiting myself. So I actually spent a year of being a direct hire recruiter, kind of dipped my toes in the water, but didn’t stay long. Went back into working in accounting for about four years and then joined LRS in the summer of 2018. Come a long way since then, the company has changed pretty drastically since that time.
Folwell: Well, that’s awesome and that’s a super unique background and I’m excited to jump into that. Before we do that, could you just tell me a little bit about kind of the size and growth trajectory for LRS?
Beckmann: Yeah, so currently we’ve got about 3,500 travelers working for us. It’s quite different from when I got here in 2018, we had about 400 travelers working for us.
Folwell: Wow. That’s impressive.
Beckmann: Yeah. And it’s been a whirlwind over the past four-plus years of going from where we were to where we are. We’ve added long-term care and allied divisions since that time. So we originally started out as just travel nursing, expanded into those other areas and have really grown those areas.
Folwell: And what makes LRS unique or what do you think has been one of the core drivers behind that growth?
Beckmann: Yeah, I think it comes down to a couple different things. I mean, in this business everything is relationship based, which comes back to your people. I mean, we’ve got some people that are just, they’re willing to put in the work, they care so deeply about their travelers and the people that are out in the field for us. And that just shines through with all of their interactions. And then I think it also comes back to, I’m kind of a big believer in, I think it’s Richard Branson’s method of, “Treat your people well, they’ll treat your customer well.” And so we do what we can to make sure our employees internally are happy. And we know that that translates out. Like this past year, we were rated second-best employer in Omaha for large employers.
Folwell: That’s amazing.
Beckmann: It’s just something we try to take care of our people.
Folwell: Yeah. And just to dig in that, what are some of the things that you guys do specifically to take care of them?
Beckmann: Yeah. We offer our employees a ton of different kinds of development opportunities. We have an entire training and development team built out, talent development built out so that those people have the opportunity at all times to kind of continually advance themselves, both professionally and personally. We have an incredible vice president of engagement here who, she spends…the effort she puts in to make sure that our employees have recognition, and they have events, and they have opportunities to get involved in the community through various different networking and volunteer activities. She just coordinates these things to a level that I’ve not seen before anywhere else that allows our employees to feel super connected to everything that we’re doing here.
Folwell: Oh, that’s really cool. And I think that’s actually been kind of a trend for successful staffing agencies that I’ve had on this show, seem to be very focused on making sure that their employees are taken care of and have a solid career and learning path in place. Shifting gears a little bit, you brought up that you were a public accountant, then you went to CFO, and you’re also now leading the technology charge at LRS. That’s a pretty unique career path and I know you’re currently CFO and also kind of taking on the tech stack and the tech strategy. Tell me a little bit about how you got there and how you’re handling both the CFO and the tech lead role.
Beckmann: Yeah. Yes. For me, my personal kind of passion for technology kind of started in my last job before this. I was fortunate to have the opportunity to implement — we were a global manufacturing company — and I got to implement a couple different systems that impacted every single one of our locations, allowed me to kind of spend time in that design, develop, implement phase, and then go out and train everybody around the world. And it just, it hit home with me as to how big of an impact the right technology can have on people being able to do their jobs.
And so then when I came to LRS, obviously we were a lot smaller then and there was just kind of this opportunity that our founder is incredibly passionate and he’s a former recruiter and he is all in on helping our recruiters and staff get to where they need to be. And then there was this opportunity for me to help him with the rest of the business. And by that I mean the finance, the technology, the fundamental HR side, like everything else. And so I kind of just dove right in thinking that the better I can make our technology and processes, the better it’s going to make my job as a CFO and kind of took on that dual role. And then as we’ve grown, it’s just been something that I’ve been able to surround myself with incredible people that have helped it continue to move forward.
Folwell: Awesome. That’s great. And tell me a little bit about, what’s your approach to technology or implementing new software?
Beckman: Yeah. I think the biggest thing with any technology and software is you have to be adaptable and you have to have a plan. And so I think the very big key is just making sure that you know you’re not just buying technology to buy technology or you’re not just building technology to build technology. There are incredible softwares out there that don’t get used because people don’t have a plan for how they’re going to use them. So our plan and our approach here is we try to figure out, first of all, “Is there a problem or an issue that we’re trying to solve? Is there something that we can make better, incrementally better by adding in some piece of technology?”
And then we start the evaluation process as to, “Okay, what technology is that? What does that look like? Should we try to hire developers and build it? Should we try to buy it? Is there something out there?” And I don’t ever think one answer is the right answer. I think it’s a combination somewhere in between there where you’re usually looking to say some stuff is better off the shelf, some stuff is better homemade. And so we approach it that way. And then we try to map out, “What does success look like at the end of this implementation?” So that we know, it might be nine months down the road, but we know what that’s going to look like before we start. And then we dive right in and start solving problems with our technology.
Folwell: That’s great. And on the build versus buy category, I feel like that’s a great conversation to have as well. I know a lot of staffing firms I’ve watched tried to build, at different points, trying to build their own ATS, trying to go out and build some things that maybe aren’t core to their strategy, that also might be a little bit outside of the box for what to handle. So do you tie that into, is it strategic or is it more like, “Can we do it better?” Any other specific pieces of advice around that or examples of technology that you’ve decided to build?
Beckmann: Yep. Yeah, usually what it stems off of for us is, “Can we do it better? Can we do it quicker? Can we do it more cost-effective?” And so I look at it from the standpoint of, for example, we were on a different ATS system when I got here, and then we started evaluating kind of some of the areas where it could have improved, we could have done better. In that evaluation, we started walking down the path of, “All right, what else is out there?” We ended up landing on Bullhorn, we went with Bullhorn for that project. And as we implemented Bullhorn and started to look at the different kind of foundational pieces inside of Bullhorn, we noticed that there were a couple areas that we thought we could probably do these better.
So we kind of did a concurrent implementation of Bullhorn and an in-house build of our own system called LRS Connect. And so it was kind of using our own in-house system to fill the gaps more than anything, more so than a, “This one is going to be the only system we’re going to use and we’re going to stick to it.” We kind of fill the gaps in with our home system. And then if we find duplicity anywhere where there’s multiple functions that are the same within systems, we tend to go with whichever one is best. And you take your pride out of it of whether you built it or bought it and you go with what’s best.
Folwell: Oh, that’s great. I feel like at every Healthcare Staffing Summit, people are always asking me as a healthcare agency, “What’s it like being on Bullhorn?” I’m also very curious to know about what gaps you felt like you needed to build, if you’re open to sharing that. But yeah, I’d love to know what that experience has been like for you.
Beckmann: Yeah, I think, I mean, like any software, Bullhorn has its ups and downs through implementation and through utilization. And I’m a big believer that it’s probably the best thing out there right now that we’re looking at in our market space. And the implementation can be a challenge because it is so comprehensive. I mean, you’re talking about, we went with Bullhorn One, so we did everything from your front office ATS all the way through, send something over to payroll or send an invoice out. So it’s the whole kit and caboodle. And that leads to challenges in and of itself because you’re involving people from every department to do it successfully. So you’ve got the people aspect of getting involved and figuring out, “Okay, I have to understand this system. How’s it going to impact us? How do we fit it?” And then actually go through and do it. And then once you get it built, then you’ve got this whole new challenge. And I think it’s a strong challenge in staffing, which is the adoption.
Folwell: Yeah. How’s that going?
Beckmann: We’ve been on for about nine months now….
Folwell: Recruiters love change, don’t they?
Beckmann: We sure do. Yeah, we’ve been on for about nine months now. And I will say that you could definitely…I explained it to everybody, kind of like the J-curve. Where I say, “Hey, we’re going to start with this major excitement that’s up here on this side.” And everybody’s just looking forward to it.
I like that.
We’re going to start going downhill. We’re going to go down, we’re going to hit this bottom valley where people are like, “Why did we do this? This is a miserable nightmare. I don’t want to do this.” And then they’re going to start to see the wins come out of it and the efficiencies and you head back up. And what we did is, myself and our project manager, we kind of sat down, we put our J curve out on a calendar. And we said, “Okay, we’re going live end of January, that’s going to be our start of the J curve. I want to be in that bottom peak probably end of February, and then I want to come back by St. Patrick’s Day to feel like we’re coming back up. And then by Memorial Day I want to throw a big party company-wide because everybody’s happy.
And for the most part we pretty much did. There are still little areas here and there where we’re constantly tweaking. I think one thing about Bullhorn that a lot of customers, or potential customers, don’t think about going into it is, it is a living, breathing system. You are constantly going to be working on it. So for us, for example, I’ve got a team of, it’s up to almost six people now. There’s a couple focused on reporting, but quite a few that are focused specifically on the Bullhorn system and the add-on platforms that go with it. So if you don’t intend to have people dedicated to the system post-live, you won’t enjoy your experience.
Folwell: Fair enough, fair enough. And so what does LRS Connect do? What are the components that you have?
Beckmann: Yeah. I think the big thing that we kind of found out with Bullhorn that we didn’t necessarily like the functionality or it lacked functionality was, having a, call it a caregiver or clinician portal. Have a spot for a caregiver to go in and connect with their recruiting team, connect with their credentialing person, their billing, payroll, whatever it might be, be able to send back and forth documents, kind of build their own version of their own little profile where we can get to know them better and then we can serve them better. So we built that out in LRS Connect to start with.
Folwell: Is that a mobile app, mobile experience?
Beckmann: We are about to launch the mobile app off of it.
Folwell: Awesome. Awesome.
Beckmann: Yeah, so we’re working on that right now. It’s configured, I was testing it this morning actually. So our developer’s got it kind of… He’s got at least a test phase where I can see what it looks like. And then our goal is….
Folwell: That’s amazing.
Beckmann: …to get it out this quarter. So ideally it’ll be in the App Store and out on the Android platforms by the end of November.
Folwell: Oh, that’s incredible. And how did you go…I mean, did you build custom build on the app side? It sounds like you guys did do that. Is that….
Beckmann: Yeah, so we actually use a no-code platform to build the entire process and it’s called Bubble. So it’s Bubble.io is the platform it’s built on.
Folwell: I’ve been on their site and I thought, “What could I build with this?” And then realize I don’t have the time to do anything.
Beckmann: Yeah, it’s a pretty powerful tool, pretty incredible. And it’s very friendly playing with both the Apple, iOS, and Android. So a few tweaks here and there and then go through the approval process and you’re ready to go. It’s really pretty flexible there. Currently we’re actually building out an entire new timekeeping capability through it. So Bullhorn has, they call it Bullhorn Time + Expense, our goal is to have the caregiver have the most convenient and easy experience possible with us. And in order to do so, we try to limit the number of systems they may have to log into. So ultimately your goal with LRS Connect is to say, “All right, caregiver, you’re already here, you’re already using this. You already have your credentialing….”
Folwell: All the information right there.
Beckmann: “…in the system. Let’s go ahead and build you a time card here you can use. Let’s go ahead and build you a way to push your pay stubs back from payroll system. Let’s just put everything in one spot so you don’t have to worry about logging into five different systems.” So that’s the next phase of development, is getting the, call it timekeeping and payroll phases launched.
Folwell: Awesome. I think that’s a great move. And it’s like that’s why mobile apps are so powerful right now, is you can go find out when you’re getting paid, how much you’re getting paid. I mean, that’s one of the key components. One other component…so you’ve talked about going live with Bullhorn, hitting the J curve. Do you have any measurable outcomes that you’re open to sharing? Any specific efficiency gains, anything along those lines?
Beckmann: I think the biggest thing that we’ve gained with Bullhorn is we’re able to actually build out different KPIs and tracking mechanisms now, and we also have full transparency. So in our old system got, I mean, simple things in our old system, such as how many new jobs did we have? How many new caretakers do we have? Those were hard things to pull out of the system. How many submits do we have this week? Well now we have all that stuff connected right into a Power BI dashboard. You can click on whichever one you want, and all of a sudden, boom. You have all the data you want.
I think the biggest thing that we’ve gained with Bullhorn is we’re able to actually build out different KPIs and tracking mechanisms now, and we also have full transparency.
So I think the biggest kind of measuring stick for us is just knowing that we continue to grow throughout the entire implementation and we now have all these metrics in front of us that allow us to judge “Are we being efficient? What should we set our standards at?” That was kind of the big thing for us. And then the other major, major win with Bullhorn is there’s nowhere to hide. Our recruiters, they kind of give me a hard time when I tell them all the time, “My goal for the final conversion of this system is to say, ‘there is literally nowhere to hide.’” Like you gotta follow the processes, building things the right way, and everything is trackable within the system.
Folwell: That’s awesome. You’re basically pushing adoption and also making it so that you’re going to have the data you need so that you can make better business decisions and have better KPIs, measurement of who’s doing what, and who’s doing it well. Did you have any strategy or did you put a plan in place to get adoption of Bullhorn? I know that’s something a lot of, any new product adoption, something I deal with daily, I know a lot of companies do, but any tips or tricks on that front would be great.
Beckmann: Yeah, first of all, bribe everybody. So we had a lot of food days and a lot of bringing in coffee and everything like that for everybody during the first month of going live. Because every time we would announce something new, it was, “Hey, we’re going to do this, but we’re also giving you donuts.” So I would bribe people as much as possible. But no, secondary to that, I think, is our biggest strategy was not to overwhelm people. So I think — and we went through this same problem during our implementation, I think a lot of companies go through this — is you want to launch the system with everything ready to go and just feel, “I’m going to hit the ground day one, and it’s 100% perfect and ready.” And that’s not realistic.
…you want to launch the system with everything ready to go and just feel, “I’m going to hit the ground day one, and it’s 100% perfect and ready.” And that’s not realistic.
So what we kind of stepped back with during our implementation and figured out, a better plan for us was, “Let’s launch this thing in the foundational pieces we need to have first, and then add onto it as we go.” So if people start to get comfortable with just the navigation, where to find things, how to use the system, and then next week, we’re going to launch another feature, and next week we’re going to launch another feature. And you start to do that and you follow that up with proper training and tutorials, and suddenly all of a sudden people start to see, “Man, I have this extra hour in my day that I didn’t have before because the system’s doing this work for me.” And you start to have wins.
Folwell: And do you have any learning management systems or anything in place to keep the team up to speed with what…because it sounds like you’re doing a really nice…nobody can learn at all at once. If you do that, people’s eyes gloss over after about 20 minutes and they’re like…it like needs to be three to five things probably. And then how do you do that well? I saw you smile when I asked about the LMS, so is there anything in place?
Beckmann: Yeah. Yeah. So we call it the LRS loop. It is through Brainier so it comes with all of the Brainier content and then it’s also enabled us to add our own content. So throughout our entire implementation of Bullhorn and any other kind of process we have here, we will actually go out and build, we use OneNote to just kind of build a living SOP. Kind of, “This is what it should look like. This is how you should do it. If you get stuck, go here.” And then we’ve converted all that information into Brainier. And currently our training team is working on even converting it further into videos and tutorials so people can just click. And if you’re a new employee with LRS, you start here, you’ve got a first week orientation program, and then you go right into training and your training is inclusive. Everything virtual through Brainier now so you can go on and watch the videos, read whatever documentation you want, and honestly, by week three or four, you’re pretty well prepared to start doing the job.
Folwell: And then you’re building all of that, the Bullhorn training into that as well, so everybody knows exactly what to do. So, it sounds like the learning management side is something that’s really helping you guys scale as well, so making sure that you can educate your team quickly. I mean, I think that’s something, agencies struggle with that a lot. It’s like a lot of recruiter turnover. How do you get somebody up to speed?
Beckmann: Yeah. I think even from when I first got here to now, one of our biggest differentiators has become just kind of having a normalized standard training program and then also doing refresher trainings. I mean, there’s so many people that get in this industry and they think, “Oh, I’ve been doing it for a year. I know exactly what to do.” Well, it’s not as stagnant as it used to be. Things change all the time. Regulations change, rules change, the way you submit things change, everything changes. And so we do, at least every six months, we have all of our people go through refresher trainings and they start to pick up on things that they maybe didn’t know happened or they didn’t know improvements were put in place and they figured it out and it makes them better.
Folwell: Yeah, absolutely. And this is another comment you made, switching subjects a little bit, but you had talked about the concept of it’s not critical to be the first or to be the fastest. I think that’s a great idea. Could you share a little bit about why you think that’s important?
Beckmann: Yeah. I think this whole industry, from doing the job or even implementing technology or anything else, everybody always wants to be speed. Speed, speed, speed. Be fast. And I think speed is incredibly important. I think the other two things that are almost more important sometimes are efficiency and accuracy. If you can combine all three of those things, you typically end up being the best. And I tell people here all the time, Google was not the first search engine. Facebook was not the first social media platform. Amazon was not the first online retailer. But are they the biggest and the best now? You could certainly make an argument for it. So I think if you’re patient in your processes, in building things out, and you’re patient in your development to the point that you’re kind of tiptoeing that line of getting left behind but being at the front of the curve, and you’re coming through with enhanced features and enhanced ways of doing things that are better, it will pay off in the long run.
Folwell: I absolutely agree with that. And it’s always funny, I was thinking about being the first versus just being the best. So a lot of times the whole leapfrog strategy, learn from the first, watch their mistakes. One other category I wanted to touch base on before we jump into the personal questions here is just in the healthcare staffing industry, I mean, you know it’s been a wild ride the last few years, a lot of different kind of ups and downs. What are some of the trends that you see right now within the industry?
Beckmann: Yeah. I think right now, and really for the past few weeks, six weeks probably, one of the things we’re definitely seeing is just trying to figure out what is normal. There’s been so much volatility, and I think you go back over the last two years, this industry has just been on a rocket ship and it’s just, “Hey, we need everybody. We don’t care. Send them to us no matter what.”
Folwell: Yeah. And pay whatever.
Beckmann: And so right now we’re kind of coming towards, I don’t want to call it the end of that, but kind of towards the end of that where you’re figuring out that staffing is going to exist forever. There is a shortage of humans to do the jobs that need to be done, especially in healthcare. And so there is heavy demand out there, and hospitals, everybody all across the country needs help, but it’s figuring out, “What’s the right price for that help? What’s the right assignment look like? What is the right help? So what do we actually need? Do we need an LPN? Do we need an RN? What do we need to do this job?” And so I think I just to categorize what we’re seeing right now as almost like a level setting of the industry, which to me feels like it’s the launchpad for the next couple years in the industry.
Folwell: Basically coming off of COVID, COVID rates and down to back to planet Earth and figuring out what actually makes sense and how do we move forward.
Folwell: I also know in healthcare I’ve heard a lot of, there’s been a shift with RPO. Is that something you’re seeing companies toy around with or do you have any thoughts on that as well?
Beckmann: We see a little bit of it. I think it’s definitely on the forefront. So I think it’s something that the more like, I would say, first adopters and those are kind of seeing that stuff out right now. I don’t know that it’s probably the most popular thing yet, but I mean it’s certainly one of those things that’s right around the corner and it’s coming our way.
Folwell: Yeah, and I also wonder if that, I think RPO is like, “All right, we’re paying these rates that are the highest we’ve ever paid.” RPO looks more like a better approach to some in that instance. And as we come back to a level setting, I’m wondering what will happen, if that will still continue to grow at the rate it has been.
The last question I have on the healthcare staffing side of things is just, you mentioned that you branched out of travel nursing, I heard allied, I couldn’t remember the other vertical you went into. What was the other that you said?
Beckmann: Long-term care, so mostly CNA and LPN market.
Folwell: Got it. And are you guys planning to continue to branch out into other verticals, or?
Beckmann: I think the one big one that we constantly kind of keep our eye on out in the space is just what is happening in a locum space. I think for us, it’s a heavy focus on making sure that we’re the best at what we do before we try to take on something new almost. And so we continually invest in, our allied division has just been growing immensely over the past couple years, so we invest heavily into that. And then it’s, I think your eye’s always out there on what’s available from getting into the locum space. My personal belief is it’s tough to break into that space without acquisitions or consolidation of some kind. So I think for us, it’s a matter of we’re aware of it, we’re keen to it, we’re interested in it, we’re just not there yet.
Folwell: Yep. That makes complete sense and thanks for sharing that. With that, we’re going to jump the last part of the interview into some of the personal questions. So first question I’ve got for you is, what advice do you wish you were given before entering the staffing industry?
Beckmann: Get ready to be uncomfortable. It grows fast. I think the industry in general, I wish somebody would’ve told me four-and-a-half years ago that, while the industry is huge and it’s a 25 billion plus industry just in healthcare, there’s still a lot of maturation happening within the industry. There’s still founders, and new CEOs, and new board of directors and everybody are, they’re wising up and they’re learning about, what I would call more traditional business practices and how to do things in a more common way. But there’s also just a lot of it that’s built on grit and hard work, and that takes some time to mature into a, I would call a sophisticated business model.
Folwell: Yeah, absolutely. That’s great advice. And in the last five years, what new belief, behavior, or habit has most improved your life?
Beckmann: Probably one of the biggest ones is just not to take things personally and be able to kind of have, I’ll call it spirited confrontation, consultation, whatever you want to call it, that allows you to work together with somebody who has a completely different viewpoint to move everything forward. I think younger me would’ve taken a lot more things personally, and now where I’m at today, it’s more of a matter of, “Okay, they have a different point of view, let’s figure out what that point of view is and how we can compromise somewhere in the middle.”
Folwell: I love that. I had a former customer who, they called those the “robust conversations.” I always liked that one. What is one of the best or most worthwhile investments you’ve ever made? Could be an investment of money, time, energy, et cetera.
Beckmann: I’m going to go ahead and say that probably one of the best investments I ever made was going way back to coming out of college and shortly thereafter is, I called it an investment in myself. I was at a school that allowed me to do a grad program condensed down in a year-and-a-half. And so I decided to stick around and do that to get my master’s degree, and then went right into studying for my CPA and got my CPA and….
Folwell: Wow. Knocked it all out.
Beckmann: … it’s one of those things…yeah, it’s one of those things that, painful doing it, and honestly, I don’t know how much I use my CPA anymore, but it’s still something knowing that I could do it and that I have it is probably the best investment I’ve made, at least in myself.
Folwell: I love that. And what is the book or books you’ve given most as a gift and why?
Beckmann: I always go back to one on this, and it’s Relentless by Tim Grover. It is, Tim Grover has just a fascinating story to me of just being an immigrant who didn’t understand exactly what he was getting himself into and ended up being Michael Jordan’s trainer, ended up being Kobe Bryant’s trainer. Quick on him is he sent 14 letters to the Chicago Bulls back in the late ’80s, and the only person he didn’t send a letter to was Michael Jordan. And it turned out to work out for him because Michael Jordan got upset that he didn’t get a letter and contacted him. And the rest is history. He’s now one of….
Folwell: That’s amazing.
Beckmann: …the most impressive trainers in history.
Folwell: Very cool, very cool. Last question I’ve got for you is, how does a failure or apparent failure set you up for later success?
Beckmann: I think it only sets you up for later success if you are humble enough to learn from it. So that’s the thing for me is like, I was the outsider coming in here to this company and I tried some things right off the bat of, “I think we should change this. I think we should change that. I think we should try this.” And I got some buy-in on some things and then they didn’t work. And it was kind of one of those like, “Yep, I learned from this. We’ll do it better next time.” You got to be able to kind of fall on the sword and just be humble enough to say, “I learned my lesson. This is how I’ll do it differently next time.”
You got to be able to kind of fall on the sword and just be humble enough to say, “I learned my lesson. This is how I’ll do it differently next time.”
Folwell: That’s great. With that, any closing comments that you have for the audience?
Beckmann: I think the biggest thing is just, I imagine if you’re listening to this, you’re probably in the staffing industry or at least thinking about it. It’s a wonderful space to be in. I think people just need to realize that, I know back when I was a recruiter, sometimes you get the different stereotypes and whatnot, but realistically, once you’re in staffing, it’s just an amazing atmosphere to be in. The ecosystem is there and I think demand is strong for the future, and it’s going to be something that continues to grow, and I’m grateful to be part of it.
Folwell: Well, that’s great advice, Jeff. Really nice having you on the show. Enjoyed the conversation. Thanks so much.
Beckmann: Yeah, thanks for having me.